Dr Stephanie Estima on The Diary Of A CEO: Why Women Need to Stop Chasing Skinny

The latest episode of The Diary Of A CEO with Steven Bartlett puts women’s fitness, body image, hormones, strength training, dieting culture, and midlife health under the microscope — and Dr Stephanie Estima arrives with a blunt thesis: many women have been trained to think about health as a process of shrinking.

That is the emotional center of this conversation. Estima is not simply arguing that women should lift weights, eat more protein, take creatine, or stop fearing carbohydrates. She is arguing that the language of women’s health has been broken for decades. Too much of it has been built around loss: lose weight, lose inches, lose fat, lose a dress size, lose appetite, lose hunger, lose evidence that the body has needs.

Estima wants to replace that with gain.

Gain muscle. Gain bone density. Gain capacity. Gain stability. Gain power. Gain a body that can age, carry, sprint, squat, recover, sleep, desire, and live.

That makes this episode one of the more focused health interviews in the recent Diary Of A CEO catalog. Bartlett often hosts experts with sweeping claims about longevity, trauma, metabolism, masculinity, relationships, business, or the nervous system. This one is narrower in the best way. It is about women’s bodies, but it is also about the cultural pressure that teaches women to mistrust those bodies.

Episode Snapshot

The public episode listing describes Estima as a Doctor of Chiropractic and women’s health expert with more than 20 years of clinical practice, specializing in female physiology, hormones, and metabolism. It also identifies her as host of Better With Dr Stephanie and author of The Betty Body, with an upcoming book titled Nothing to Lose. Estima’s own site similarly frames her work around women’s hormones, metabolism, midlife, and fitness, and describes her podcast Better! With Dr. Stephanie as a health and fitness show for driven women.

Why This Episode Works

The strongest thing about this episode is that it refuses to treat women’s fitness as a simple math problem.

Yes, calories matter. Yes, exercise matters. Yes, strength training matters. But Estima keeps returning to a deeper question: what kind of body are women being encouraged to build?

A smaller body is not automatically a stronger body. A lighter body is not automatically a healthier body. A disciplined body is not always a well-fed body. And a woman who looks “fit” may still be under-recovered, under-muscled, undernourished, hormonally disrupted, or quietly miserable.

That is where the episode finds its edge. It is not anti-weight loss. Estima is careful enough to say that reducing obesity can be beneficial. Her target is more specific: the pursuit of skinny “at all costs.” In the transcript, she connects that pursuit to under-eating, fear of heavy weights, reduced bone-density focus, and a distorted sense of self-worth.

The result is a podcast episode that feels like a correction. Not a gentle wellness rebrand. A correction.

Who Is Dr Stephanie Estima?

Dr Stephanie Estima is a women’s health educator, chiropractor, podcast host, author, and fitness-focused communicator. In the episode, she explains that she studied neuroscience and psychology at the University of Toronto before attending the Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College. She also describes becoming a fitness instructor and personal trainer early in her career, then spending 20 years in clinical practice with tens of thousands of patients.

Her authority in this interview is not presented only as academic. It is also personal. Estima talks about her own experience of trying to force herself into an idealized body type, including competing in a figure competition, reaching a very low body-fat percentage, losing her period for months, and later feeling that the “science” she had followed had failed her.

That story matters because it prevents the conversation from becoming a cold lecture. Estima is not just saying, “Women should lift.” She is saying, “I know what it feels like to confuse external validation with health.”

That is the episode’s emotional hook.

The Core Argument: Stop Trying to Be a Loser

The most viral-ready line in the episode is also the one most likely to be misunderstood. Estima says she wants women to stop being “losers.” In context, she means women should stop defining health only through losing: losing weight, losing size, losing appetite, losing softness.

The phrasing is provocative, but the argument is not cruel. It is actually compassionate. Estima is trying to move women away from a punishing relationship with their bodies and toward a more constructive one.

Her replacement framework is gain-based:

Women should ask what they can gain in muscle, bone density, connective tissue strength, confidence, mobility, resilience, and trust in their own body.

This is a much more interesting argument than the usual “strong is the new skinny” slogan. Estima even resists pitting strength and slimness against each other. Her issue is not that someone might value being lean. Her issue is when leanness becomes the dominant goal and everything else is sacrificed to it.

That distinction is important. It is what keeps the episode from becoming another simplistic body-positivity versus fitness-culture debate. Estima is not saying appearance does not matter to people. She is saying appearance cannot be the only metric.

The Four Female Fitness Archetypes

One of the most useful parts of the episode is Estima’s four-archetype framework. It is simple, memorable, and built for the podcast format. Bartlett is good at letting a guest turn an abstract theory into a practical map, and this section gives listeners a way to locate themselves without needing a sports science degree.

Overwhelmed Olivia

Overwhelmed Olivia is the woman drowning in conflicting advice. One video says plants are dangerous. The next says plants are essential. One influencer says lift light weights for high reps. Another says heavy weights are necessary. One camp says fasting is magic. Another says fasting is ruining hormones.

The result is not empowerment. It is paralysis.

Estima’s advice for this archetype is refreshingly modest. Do not try to rebuild her entire life in one week. Give her a quick win. Start with walking. Aim for something like 5,000 to 7,000 steps per day. Let her feel successful before adding more complexity.

This is one of the episode’s most practical points. Many fitness conversations fail because they assume motivation is the missing ingredient. For Overwhelmed Olivia, clarity is the missing ingredient.

Skinny Fat Sophia

Skinny Fat Sophia is the woman who may not look overweight but lacks the muscle mass, strength, or body composition she wants. Estima uses the phrase “thin on the outside, fat on the inside” to describe the concept.

This archetype is central to the episode because it challenges a common visual assumption: that looking small means being healthy.

Estima’s solution for Sophia is not punishment. It is more food, heavier resistance, and a better relationship with muscle-building. She says this woman often becomes amazed that she can lose fat or improve her body composition while eating more than she expected.

The deeper lesson: under-eating can be a trap, especially when paired with fear of weight training.

Exorcist Emily

Exorcist Emily is the hard trainer. She has no problem getting to the gym. She can push herself. She can suffer. But she still carries fear around food and weight gain.

This archetype gives the episode emotional depth because Estima identifies with it. She describes a season of her life after divorce, with young children, when training became a way to process grief and rage — but she still under-fueled herself.

That is a more nuanced portrait than the usual “gym addict” stereotype. For some people, training is therapy before it is aesthetics. But even useful coping strategies can become punishing if they are paired with self-denial.

Dialled-In Diana

Dialled-In Diana is the goal state. She trains, eats, recovers, and lives with less punishment and more trust. She fuels for performance. She moves for care. She eats for nourishment and pleasure. She understands recovery as part of the plan, not a reward that must be earned.

This is where the episode’s philosophy becomes clear: the ideal is not perfection. It is integration.

The Six Fitness Myths

The public listing says the episode covers six fitness myths, and the transcript gives those myths real structure: carbs, bulking, fasting, fear of lifting heavy, post-workout meal timing, and pre-workout fueling.

Myth 1: Carbs Are the Enemy

Estima’s carbohydrate discussion is one of the most balanced parts of the interview.

She does not claim low-carb diets are useless. In fact, she says lower-carbohydrate approaches can be helpful temporarily for certain populations, including women with type 2 diabetes or PCOS-related metabolic issues. Her objection is to turning a temporary tool into a permanent identity.

The analogy she uses is antibiotics: if antibiotics help with a bacterial infection, that does not mean a person should take antibiotics forever. Likewise, if cutting carbohydrates helps for a period, that does not prove carbohydrates should be avoided for life.

Her broader point is that women need carbohydrates for mood, sleep, thyroid function, and gym performance. She also pushes back against exaggerated fear of glucose spikes, while still acknowledging that overconsumption of carbohydrates, fats, or total calories can be a problem.

This is exactly the kind of nuance health podcasts need more often. Carbs are not magic. They are not poison. They are a tool.

Myth 2: Lifting Heavy Makes Women Bulky

This is probably the most familiar myth, but Estima handles it with humor. Her comparison is that assuming heavy lifting will make most women look like bodybuilders is like assuming driving to the grocery store will turn someone into Lewis Hamilton.

The point lands because it reframes muscle gain as difficult, not accidental.

Most women will not become visibly “bulky” from progressive overload. Building significant muscle takes time, consistent training, sufficient food, recovery, genetics, and hormonal context. Estima also explains why some women may feel temporarily “thicker” when they begin lifting: muscles can feel swollen, and fat may still sit over newly trained muscle before body composition changes become more visible.

This is a key distinction for beginners. The early phase of training can feel strange. That does not mean something is going wrong.

Myth 3: Long Fasts Are the Secret

Estima is especially cautious about long fasts for women.

Her issue is not with overnight fasting or simply stopping food a few hours before bed. She is more concerned about 20-hour, 24-hour, 36-hour, or multi-day fasts becoming a lifestyle default.

Her argument is that the female body is highly sensitive to energy availability because reproductive function is metabolically expensive. If a woman is fasting aggressively and often, the body may interpret that as a scarcity signal. Estima connects this to menstrual-cycle disruption and insufficient intake.

This section is useful because it shifts the fasting conversation away from willpower. The question is not, “Can you endure hunger?” The question is, “Is this strategy supporting the body you are trying to build?”

Myth 4: Heavy Weights Are Too Dangerous

Estima treats fear of injury as valid but incomplete.

Many women, especially those who grew up in the 1990s and 2000s fitness culture of cardio machines, thinness, and “toning,” may feel intimidated by squat racks, deadlift platforms, machines, and free weights. Estima’s point is that progressive overload does not always mean lifting the heaviest possible weight. It can mean more reps, more sets, better range of motion, less rest, more control, or bringing the muscle closer to failure.

This is an important coaching insight. Heavy is relative. Hard is relative. Progress is measurable in more ways than load.

Myth 5: The Post-Workout Window Is Tiny

The episode also dismantles the old belief that a person must rush a protein shake within 15 minutes of training or “miss” the muscle-building window.

Estima says the more important factor is total daily protein and total calories across the day. Muscle protein synthesis does not vanish after 15 minutes. Depending on training status and context, the body is still adapting long after the workout ends.

For normal listeners, this is liberating. It removes one more fragile rule from fitness culture. Eat enough. Get enough protein. Do not panic because the shaker bottle was not in your hand at minute sixteen.

Myth 6: Everyone Must Eat Before Training

This is one area where Estima is more personal and flexible. She says that, ideally, food before training can improve performance. She notices better training when she has breakfast before weekend workouts. But during the week, when she trains early, she does not like eating that early and sometimes uses ketones instead.

This part of the conversation is less universally actionable because Estima discloses that she is a co-owner of the ketone company she mentions. That transparency is important.

The broader takeaway is still useful: pre-workout fueling should serve performance, but real life matters. Some people train early. Some people cannot tolerate food before lifting. Some people perform much better with carbohydrates beforehand. The best advice is not a rigid rule; it is an experiment with outcomes.

Strength Training: The Episode’s Practical Center

The episode’s most actionable section is about what women should actually do in the gym.

Estima argues that women benefit from training the same fundamental human movement patterns men train: squats, deadlifts, presses, pulls, loaded carries, lunges, and other resistance-based movements. Bartlett points out that men often gravitate toward the platform and free-weight area while women may gravitate toward cardio machines. Estima corrects the language: those are not “male exercises.” They are human exercises.

That correction is one of the best host-guest exchanges in the episode. It reveals how deeply gendered gym spaces still are.

Estima’s broad recommendation is three to four days per week of strength training, alternating upper and lower body. She also offers a body-composition framework built around five muscle groups women may want to prioritize if they are trying to create a stronger, more hourglass-like shape:

1. Deltoids
2. Lats and back
3. Glutes
4. Adductors
5. Pelvic floor and core

Her most memorable line here is that women cannot spot-reduce, but they can “spot build.” In other words, you cannot choose exactly where fat leaves the body, but you can train specific muscles to create shape.

She also gives a simple volume guideline: around 10 sets per muscle group per week. That is not an intimidating number. It makes the plan feel achievable rather than extreme.

The Anatomy Section: Why Women May Need Different Cues

One of the more distinctive parts of the episode is the anatomy demonstration. Estima compares the male and female pelvis, explains that the female pelvis is wider and shallower, and connects that to the Q angle — the angle from hip to knee that can affect how women squat, lunge, run, jump, and land.

This is not just anatomical trivia. It is practical coaching.

Estima argues that many women may feel better squatting with a slightly wider stance and toes turned out, rather than forcing a narrow, toes-forward squat based on cues that may not suit their anatomy. She is careful not to say all women must squat differently than all men. The point is that women should be allowed to adjust technique based on structure, comfort, and stability.

That nuance matters. Fitness advice often turns into universal commandments. Estima is more interested in adaptation.

She also connects female anatomy to injury risk, particularly the tendency for the knee to move inward under fatigue and the importance of hip stabilizers, especially the glute medius. This becomes part of the broader argument for glute training: yes, glutes can shape the body aesthetically, but they also stabilize the spine, hips, knees, and ankles.

Cardio Is Not the Villain

Because this episode is so pro-strength, it could easily become anti-cardio. It does not.

Estima makes room for cardio but reframes it. Cardio should not be punishment for eating. It should not be used only to chase thinness. It should support health span, endurance, metabolic health, and daily capacity.

This distinction matters because many women have been pushed into a false choice: either chronic cardio and dieting, or strength training and walking only. Estima’s position is more complete. Lift. Walk. Do cardio. Sprint when appropriate. Build the whole system.

She is especially enthusiastic about sprinting and VO2 max. The public chapter list highlights “Why Sprinting Is So Good For Women,” “Is Running Bad For Your Knees?” and “Why Jump Training Matters,” which reflects how much of the episode moves beyond gym aesthetics into aging and physical capacity.

The sprinting section is one of the episode’s best examples of Estima’s “gain” philosophy. The goal is not calorie burn. The goal is capacity.

Can you run? Can you jump? Can you stop yourself from falling? Can your tendons absorb force? Can your heart and lungs meet demand?

Those are better aging questions than, “What size jeans can you wear?”

Pelvic Floor, Motherhood, and the Postpartum Gap

The episode becomes especially valuable when Bartlett asks about issues mothers face after childbirth: prolapse, pelvic floor health, returning to exercise, and the specific challenges a person who has not given birth may not understand.

Estima explains the pelvic floor as a sling or hammock of muscles supporting the organs in the pelvis. She points out that the female pelvic floor has more openings than the male pelvic floor, which changes the mechanical demands. Pregnancy, hormonal changes, the weight of the baby, and birth can all affect pelvic-floor strength and load capacity.

Her advice is cautious: women should be cleared by an OB/GYN, midwife, or care provider before returning to exercise postpartum. They should not automatically jump back into heavy loads and high intensity.

This is one of the episode’s strongest service sections because it acknowledges an area that mainstream fitness content often mishandles. “Get your body back” culture tends to rush postpartum women toward visible results. Estima focuses instead on tissue readiness, pelvic-floor function, progressive loading, and professional guidance.

She also makes an important distinction around Kegels. They may help some women with weak pelvic floors, but they can worsen symptoms for women with tight pelvic floors who have trouble relaxing. That is exactly the kind of nuance that cannot be captured in a 15-second fitness reel.

Supplements: Useful, But Not Magic

The supplement section covers magnesium glycinate, omega-3s, vitamin D3 with K2, creatine, collagen, electrolytes, vitamin C, and protein.

This is also where the episode could drift into wellness shopping-list territory, but Estima mostly keeps the discussion practical. She talks about magnesium for relaxation, sleep, and muscle recovery; omega-3s for inflammation and cognition; vitamin D as important for broader hormonal and health processes; creatine for performance and cognition; collagen for joints, tendons, and ligaments; electrolytes for heavy sweating; and vitamin C partly in relation to collagen support.

The most interesting supplement discussion is creatine. Estima argues that creatine should not be seen as a male bodybuilding supplement. She recommends it broadly for women, usually in the three-to-five-gram range, and mentions that she sometimes uses a higher dose when sleep has been poor, especially in perimenopause.

The collagen section is also notable because Estima defends it against a common criticism: that it is not a strong muscle-building protein because it lacks enough leucine. Her response is that collagen is not mainly about muscle protein synthesis. It is about connective tissue: joints, tendons, ligaments, fascia, and skin.

The right takeaway is not “take everything.” It is that supplements sit below training, food, sleep, recovery, and medical context. Estima is enthusiastic, but she does not present supplements as substitutes for the work.

GLP-1s, HRT, and the “No Easy Button” Message

Late in the episode, Estima briefly addresses GLP-1 medications and hormone therapy. This section is short but important because it brings the conversation into one of the biggest health topics of the current moment.

Her position is not anti-medication. She says medication and hormone therapy can offer benefits, including for sleep, mood, hot flashes, and other symptoms. But she warns against focusing only on benefits while ignoring side effects or lifestyle responsibilities.

Her best line of reasoning here is simple: hormone therapy will not go to the gym for you. It will not build a healthy plate. It will not set boundaries with your boss.

That is the episode’s broader philosophy in miniature. Tools can help. But no tool replaces the foundations.

Recovery: The Part Fitness Culture Still Undervalues

Recovery appears throughout the episode, but the late-stage discussion makes it explicit.

For Estima, sleep is the top recovery tool. She connects sleep to muscle growth, brain cleaning processes, growth hormone, and overall restoration. She also mentions sauna as a possible recovery tool, calling it a kind of “lazy cardio,” while making clear it is not necessary for everyone.

The tendon and ligament discussion is also part of recovery. Estima argues that muscle gets too much attention compared with the connective tissues that allow muscle to express force safely. Her Beyoncé metaphor is effective: the muscle may be the superstar, but if the stage collapses, there is no concert.

That is a good way to explain why tendons, ligaments, joints, and controlled eccentric loading matter. Strength is not just what a muscle can contract. It is what the whole body can tolerate.

Best Moments From the Episode

1. “The Pursuit of Skinny” Argument

This is the episode’s headline idea. Estima does not shame people for wanting to look good. She challenges the cultural script that teaches women to pursue smallness even when it costs them strength, hormones, bone density, recovery, and self-respect.

2. The Four Archetypes

Overwhelmed Olivia, Skinny Fat Sophia, Exorcist Emily, and Dialled-In Diana make the episode instantly more memorable. They also give listeners a low-friction way to identify patterns without feeling attacked.

3. The Squat Demonstration

The male-versus-female pelvis discussion gives the episode a visual and practical anchor. It is the kind of segment that works especially well in the YouTube version.

4. The Pelvic Floor Clarification

The Kegel nuance is a standout because it corrects lazy advice. Some women need strengthening. Others need relaxation. A pelvic-floor physiotherapist can help distinguish between the two.

5. The Pilates Nuance

Estima’s Pilates comments are likely to be clipped, debated, and misunderstood. Her actual position is not anti-Pilates. She says she loves Pilates and does it herself. Her point is that Pilates alone may not create enough load for muscle mass, bone density, and connective-tissue capacity.

That is a fair distinction.

What the Episode Gets Right

The episode succeeds because it combines three things many health conversations fail to balance:

First, it is practical. Listeners come away with training ideas, supplement considerations, food reframes, and recovery priorities.

Second, it is emotionally intelligent. Estima understands that women’s fitness choices are often tangled with worth, shame, divorce, motherhood, aging, sex, identity, and fear of failure.

Third, it is specific. Instead of generic “move more” advice, the episode discusses deltoids, lats, glutes, adductors, pelvic floor, Q angle, sprinting, VO2 max, creatine, collagen, eccentric loading, and pelvic-floor dysfunction.

That specificity makes the conversation feel premium. It is not just motivational content. It has usable detail.

What Deserves a Critical Ear

As with many health-focused podcast episodes, listeners should separate useful principles from individual recommendations.

Estima is persuasive, but not every supplement suggestion will be right for every person. Vitamin D dosing, hormone therapy, GLP-1 medications, PCOS, postpartum return to exercise, fasting, and pelvic-floor symptoms all involve individual medical context. The episode is best treated as educational commentary, not a personalized health plan.

The ketone discussion also deserves context because Estima discloses a business connection to the product category she mentions. Disclosure is good, but listeners should still evaluate that recommendation differently from her more general advice on strength training, sleep, and progressive overload.

The biggest limitation is that a 95-minute podcast can introduce a huge number of topics without fully resolving all of them. That is not necessarily a flaw; it is the nature of the format. But listeners should avoid turning every memorable segment into a rule.

Who Should Watch This Episode?

This episode is especially useful for:

Women who feel stuck despite dieting and cardio.

Women in their 30s, 40s, and 50s who suspect their old fitness strategies are no longer working.

Women afraid of lifting heavy weights.

Women who do Pilates or cardio but wonder if they are missing strength training.

Mothers returning to exercise after childbirth.

Listeners interested in pelvic floor health, perimenopause, body composition, and longevity.

Men who want to better understand women’s fitness and health challenges.

It may be less useful for listeners who want a deep academic debate with citations for every claim. The tone is educational and conversational, not a formal scientific review.

Key Takeaways

The main message of the episode is that women should stop making “smaller” the automatic goal.

Estima wants women to focus on muscle, bone, connective tissue, mobility, recovery, and confidence. She argues that carbs are not automatically bad, heavy weights do not automatically make women bulky, long fasts may be risky for some women, and Pilates alone may not be enough for long-term strength and bone health.

She also gives a practical template: strength train three to four days per week if possible, prioritize key muscle groups, train close enough to failure to create adaptation, keep cardio in the plan, sprint or jump if appropriate, protect the pelvic floor, sleep seriously, and stop treating recovery as something that has to be earned.

Final Verdict: Is the Dr Stephanie Estima Episode Worth Listening To?

Yes. The Dr Stephanie Estima episode of The Diary Of A CEO is worth listening to, especially for anyone tired of shallow fitness advice aimed at women.

It is not perfect, and it should not be treated as individualized medical advice. But as a podcast episode, it does what strong long-form interviews should do: it gives listeners a new lens, memorable language, practical takeaways, and enough emotional force to make the advice stick.

The episode matters because it reframes women’s fitness away from punishment and toward capacity. That may sound like a small language shift, but it changes everything. A body built only to become smaller is one kind of project. A body built to carry a life is another.

For The Diary Of A CEO, this is a strong health episode: specific, useful, debate-worthy, and likely to travel well in clips. For Dr Stephanie Estima, it is an effective showcase of her core message. And for listeners, it may be the push they need to stop asking, “How do I lose more?” and start asking, “What do I want to be strong enough to gain?”

FAQ

What is the Dr Stephanie Estima episode of The Diary Of A CEO about?

It is about women’s fitness, dieting myths, strength training, body composition, hormones, pelvic floor health, cardio, supplements, recovery, and why women should stop focusing only on becoming smaller.

Who is the guest on this episode?

The guest is Dr Stephanie Estima, a women’s health expert, chiropractor, author, and host of Better With Dr Stephanie.

Who hosts The Diary Of A CEO?

The podcast is hosted by Steven Bartlett. The official show description presents it as an interview podcast built around influential people, experts, thinkers, untold truths, and lessons for life and success.

How long is the Dr Stephanie Estima episode?

The public listing gives the episode length as 1 hour and 35 minutes.

What are the biggest topics discussed?

Major topics include women’s fear of heavy weights, carbs, long fasts, body composition, the four female fitness archetypes, how women may need to adjust squats, pelvic floor health, creatine, collagen, cardio, sprinting, GLP-1s, hormone therapy, and recovery.

What are the four female fitness archetypes in the episode?

The four archetypes are Overwhelmed Olivia, Skinny Fat Sophia, Exorcist Emily, and Dialled-In Diana. They describe different patterns women may experience in fitness, from confusion and under-eating to overtraining and balanced strength.

Does Dr Stephanie Estima say Pilates is bad?

No. She says she likes Pilates and does it herself. Her argument is that Pilates alone may not be enough to build sufficient muscle mass, bone density, and connective-tissue capacity for long-term strength.

Does the episode say women should avoid cardio?

No. Estima supports cardio but argues it should not be used as punishment for eating or as the only route to thinness. She emphasizes cardio for health span, endurance, VO2 max, and aging well.

What does Dr Stephanie Estima say about carbs?

She argues that carbohydrates are not automatically bad and may support mood, sleep, thyroid function, and training performance. She acknowledges that lower-carb strategies can help some people temporarily but warns against treating carbs as permanently forbidden.

What supplements are discussed?

The episode discusses magnesium glycinate, omega-3s, vitamin D3 with K2, creatine, collagen, electrolytes, vitamin C, and protein.

Is this episode good for women in perimenopause or menopause?

Yes, many of the themes are relevant to women in midlife, including strength training, creatine, sleep, hormone therapy, recovery, bone density, and body composition.

Is the episode medical advice?

No. It is a podcast interview and should be treated as educational content. Anyone dealing with medical conditions, postpartum recovery, hormone therapy, GLP-1 medications, PCOS, pelvic-floor symptoms, or supplement questions should consult an appropriate healthcare professional.